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Home » City Government » Council » Minutes Archives; 2000 - 2003 » 2003 Council Minutes » February 25, 2003 Work Session Minutes
February 25, 2003 Work Session Minutes
The Lindon City Council and Planning Commission held a informal joint Work Session on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 at 6:00 p.m. in the Lindon City Center Council Chambers at 100 North State Street, Lindon, Utah.
Conducting: Larry A. Ellertson, Mayor
PRESENT
Larry A. Ellertson, Mayor
Jeff Acerson, Councilmember
Lindsey Bayless, Councilmember
James A. Dain, Councilmember
Jerald I. Hatch, Councilmember (arrived 7.06 p.m.) Ron Anderson, Commissioner
Lori Atchison, Commissioner
Bruce Carpenter, Chairman
Jim Peters, Commissioner
Marilyn Simister, Commissioner (arrived 6:30p.m.)
Dustin Sweeten, Commissioner
Ott H. Dameron, City Administrator
Kevin Smith, Planning Director
Venla Gubler, Administrative Clerk
ABSENT
Toby H. Bath, Councilmember
Lucky Morse, Commissioner
The meeting began at 6:27 p.m.
BUSINESS
1. Discussion - Westside Master Plan. Staff will present information, which the Council and Planning Commission will discuss, concerning a residential element of the General Plan for the west side of the city near the new I-15 Interchange.
Mayor Ellertson commented that this is a continued discussion. Mr. Smith displayed some questions on the overhead projector and told the Council and Commissioners that if these questions are answered, he could prepare some development options for their review. The questions presented were:
1)Do we want housing in this area?
2)If we want housing, how many total units is acceptable in the area?
3)What is an acceptable unit per acre density for this area? and,
4)What types of housing are acceptable?(single family, multi family, apartments, condos, etc.)
Mr. Smith asked the Council and Planning Commission to consider hiring a firm to do some "visioning." This firm would take the ideas expressed and translate them to streetscapes and aerials to help create a common vision. Mayor Ellertson observed that the Lindon City General Plan was updated two years ago by a citizen committee and this group envisioned light industrial, mixed commercial uses and a residential component.
Councilmember Dain commented that the general plan committee had agreed that a residential component was desired, but could not agree on what it would look like or where it would be located. He referred to the first question on the overhead and commented that he thought all would agree that housing is acceptable in this area. He added that the City has seen two plans now for housing which were rejected. Commissioner Carpenter commented that he sees the first question differently. He pointed out that the area is mostly light industrial businesses and suggested that this is the alternative to residential housing. He asked if the members would prefer to see the light industrial zone expanded or some kind of housing element. He noted that Lindon is no longer on the edge, but in the middle of a large urban center. He added that the direction which Lindon takes is some what influenced by what our neighbors do on our borders. He suggested that housing is a less noxious alternative than light industrial. Commissioner Peters agreed that Lindon is definitely in the middle of a series of large developments and expanding cities. He commented that a drive to Saratoga Springs is amazing because of the amount of housing development taking place.
(Commissioner Simister arrived at 6:33 p.m.)
Councilmember Bayless expressed concern about having a feasible design with the lowest density possible. She asked how Lindon will know if a project will be successful or if trying to lower the density is wasting time. Chairman Carpenter replied that property values are escalating and time is on the City's side. Councilmember Bayless added that she did not necessarily feel that the half-acre-lot standard needed to be expanded into this new area, however, she was not favorable to high rise apartments either. She expressed a preference for small lots with single family homes although a conversation with Wayne Corbridge, a local developer, did not leave her with a favorable response. He does not think a full development of single family homes is economically feasible. Mr. Smith asked Councilmember Bayless what she considers a small lot. She replied 5,000 to 6,000 square feet.
Commissioner Anderson suggested that most of the development costs would be in infrastructure costs rather than land costs. Mr. Dameron asked if Commissioner Anderson was suggesting that once 700 North Street is finished with its infrastructure improvements, lot prices may be less? Commissioner Anderson felt that it would help, but noted that most housing lots would be south of 700 North and further extensions of improvements were needed. He added that land is more expensive in Pleasant Grove, but Lindon's area needs extensive infrastructure improvements. He observed that he does not want to see high rises around his family farm, but pointed out that the projects need to be economically feasible.
Mr. Dameron commented that Mr. Corbridge's last proposal had a mixture of single family homes with the apartments and condos. The density was about nine units per acre on average and that was rejected. Mayor Ellertson asked if opinions had changed since then. He asked if nine units per acre would be acceptable now? The members discussed how design of a project is part of the appeal to the public. Councilmember Dain commented that one thing he was bothered about during the Corbridge application was the isolation of the project. He could not see how to blend the project into existing and future light industrial and commercial businesses. Councilmember Bayless agreed and suggested that if the City had allowed this project there would be a rush of similar applicants who offer their proposal as "blenders." Mr. Dameron suggested that part of any residential application should be to show how they will buffer themselves from the Light Industrial neighbors.
Mr. Dameron directed attention back to question one on the overhead. He asked if the members feel there should not be housing in western Lindon at all. Councilmember Acerson asked if a reason for considering multi-unit housing is to meet the state housing mandate? Mr. Smith replied that this is an important question. He added that the question can be considered from two viewpoints, legally and morally. There is no question that Lindon has the legal obligation to provide affordable housing opportunities as required by the State mandate. However, does Lindon have the moral obligation to provide affordable housing? Chairman Carpenter suggested that Lindon needs to consider the needs of our own children. Mayor Ellertson commented that the other consideration is practicality. Councilmember Acerson asked, "Are we morally committed?" Councilmember Bayless replied that she feels morally committed, but projects that were considered affordable when they were built no longer fall into that category and she is not comfortable with the projects that have been presented yet.
Mr. Dameron suggested that once a vision has been accepted for this area, the City could implement an architectural standards committee to overcome the design defects of proposed projects. He felt that concerns about design and blending into neighboring zones can be overcome. Councilmember Acerson commented that the motivation of this process is developers who are looking to profit from identifying a potential need. He pointed out the great number of high density projects that had recently been put in many of the neighboring cities and asked if the potential need was already filled. Councilmember Bayless commented that the small single family home is not there. Chairman Carpenter agreed that young families looking for an affordable single family home are having to look to outlying areas such as Santaquin and Eagle Mountain. Mr. Smith suggested that the close distance to I-15 in Lindon may be an advantage for the small lot market as well as the high density market. He noted that developers are pessimistic about large lots selling, but he felt that small lots may sell if they are in the right price range. He pointed out a subdivision in Orem with 8,000 square foot lots that sold out quickly.
Councilmember Dain asked what the City would like to see developed in western Lindon if not housing. He suggested that there is not that much demand for more light industrial. The market has been declining in recent years. Chairman Carpenter expressed a preference for housing over more light industrial. Commissioner Sweeten commented that housing does not produce income for the City. Chairman Carpenter agreed, but noted that housing drives commercial development, which is what drives income for the City.
Mr. Smith observed that Mr. Corbridge had proposed a project of 500 units. He suggested that the City consider a mixed density project of the same unit size and add about 200 units of single family housing on small lots. He asked if those numbers would be enough to create a community there to support some commercial development. Chairman Carpenter commented that it is not wise to create too small of a community. He said that size adds to the stability. Mr. Dameron noted that the 700 units suggested by Mr. Smith, if occupied by the census average of 3.2 people per home, would add over 2,000 people to Lindon. That is the size of a small town.
Councilmember Acerson asked if people would buy these units. Mr. Smith and Councilmember Dain expressed the opinion that the units would sell. Councilmember Acerson pointed out that most high density projects in Utah County are supported by college students who are temporary. He asked how to build a more stable population. Mr. Dameron suggested that this may be a question to ask developers. Chairman Carpenter suggested requiring a 15 year plan from developers. Councilmember Acerson commented that he would prefer that Lindon not have vacant units from overbuilding. He noted that most developers plan for the short term. Councilmember Dain commented that Envision Utah predicts greater demands for affordable housing in the future. Commissioner Simister added that the Alpine School District is also predicting continued growth and is planning construction projects to meet this demand. Chairman Carpenter observed that 80% of the growth predicted comes from our own children. Commissioner Simister agreed and observed that they will need homes too.
Mayor Ellertson commented that Envision Utah does not propose to eliminate single family housing, but to change the percentages of the types of housing. He asked if the City wants to give residents the option of remaining in Lindon when they no longer want a large lot. He pointed to a neighborhood in Sandy adjacent to light rail that includes high-end single family homes, apartments and starter homes. A family can spend their entire lives in the same city and close neighborhood despite their needs or the changes in their lives. Mayor Ellertson noted that many Lindon residents have expressed concerns about the character of their neighborhoods changing. He suggested that the development of West Lindon is an opportunity to create more housing choices without affecting existing neighborhoods. He observed that this is why his answer to question one is yes. He feels that this gives Lindon options and may be the right and moral thing to do.
Mayor Ellertson suggested that the number of housing units can be figured out. He noted that although the number estimated may be found incorrect in the future, it would still add a missing element to the community. He added that if the only reason to add affordable housing to Lindon is to meet that State mandate Lindon's R2 Overlay ordinance already addresses that issue, although it is becoming more difficult. He pointed out that residents have consistently supported the R2 Overlay ordinance until a proposal is made next door to their home. The Council and Commission agreed. Councilmember Acerson expressed the opinion that allowing small high-density projects of six units per acre spread throughout the community is the best option for now. Commissioner Atchison suggested that even if high-density housing is allowed on the west side of Lindon, the R2 option should be kept open for traditional Lindon. Mayor Ellertson and Commissioner Dain agreed. Mayor Ellertson commented that the R2 Overlay ordinance meets the needs of the community and not for the sole reason of the mandate.
Councilmember Dain asked if it was important to make this new area look and feel like traditional Lindon and how it can be done. Mayor Ellertson suggested white rail fencing. Chairman Carpenter suggested "meaningful" open space. The members discussed Mr. Corbridge's proposal which incorporated barn-like (gambrel) roofs, park-like settings on the main intersections, and white rail fences. Mr. Dameron pointed out that there is already a dichotomy within Lindon. Chairman Carpenter agreed, but expressed the opinion that the "flavor" of Lindon should be maintained. He added that it is a tough proposition without becoming an exclusive community. The members discussed the median price survey and it was noted the price of Lindon homes and land are among the most expensive in Utah County.
Councilmember Acerson commented that he had tried, in his development, to keep the half-acre lot size, but he did not feel that it had made a difference in appearance between his lots and the smaller ones surrounding him. Mr. Dameron noted that some residents have expressed a concern that if high-density housing is allowed on the west side, it will have to be allowed, equally, on the east side. Chairman Carpenter suggested that if Lindon can find a way to reduce the infrastructure costs, this argument may be reduced because more single family homes can be built in western Lindon. He observed that the area can be built in smaller increments radiating out from 700 North and State Street. Councilmember Bayless asked if he was suggesting development on the east side of Geneva Road. She felt that those neighborhoods would strongly object to disruption of their lifestyle. Chairman Carpenter replied that he was not suggesting high density in the neighborhoods east of Geneva or directly west of Geneva, but small lots. That would allow development incrementally, without the whole infrastructure bill being due to one developer. He felt that this approach would justify the City's demands for lower density while discouraging no rentals and promoting single family housing.
Commissioner Anderson commented that the utilities are available on the west side near 2000 West and not on the east side near Geneva Road. Chairman Carpenter asked why developers are demanding density concessions if they do not have infrastructure costs from Geneva Road. He asked if these demands are justified. Commissioner Anderson replied that this is a large area to develop. Mayor Ellertson suggested that the concept can be reversed from the west side. Chairman Carpenter agreed and added that this may work if the land is not too costly. Mayor Ellertson asked Mr. Smith if developers felt that the zoning of a parcel affects the cost. Mr. Smith replied that land prices quoted to him were $7 to $9 per square foot if utilities were close and $40,000 to $45,000 per acre for raw land to make a project work. Mayor Ellertson observed that there was already no land left in this area in this price range.
(Councilmember Hatch arrived at 7:06 p.m.)
Mr. Dameron informed the Council and Commission members what utilities were being installed with the construction of 700 North. He noted utilities are available on the west end near Goodfellow. Chairman Carpenter asked if the infrastructure argument was being overstated. Mr. Dameron agreed that it was "somewhat overstated."
Commissioner Anderson commented that most of the discussion thus far had concentrated on the area between Geneva Road and the I-15 freeway. He asked what indications for development had been received for the west side of I-15. Mayor Ellertson noted the proposed location of a light rail station near the American Fork City border. Chairman Carpenter asked if this was within walking distance from the east side of the freeway. Mayor Ellertson replied that one or two miles is considered the standard for "walking distance." Councilmember Dain observed that the biggest drawback for development in this area is odor created by the sewer district.
Mr. Dameron observed that the apartment developers did not seem to care about the potential odor problem. Mayor Ellertson commented that apartments are rented and the owners are still on the hook. They must have faith that they can rent the units. Commissioner Sweeten observed that he would be much more comfortable with ownership opportunities rather than rentals. Mr. Smith commented that most of the R2 projects built in Lindon are for the rental market. He suggested that affordable ownership opportunities are needed rather than more rentals. Councilmember Dain pointed out an apartment complex in Orem that seemed to always have vacancies. Mr. Smith agreed and added that high density condos that have no amenities and design features to keep their buyers long term will turn to rentals within a few years. He noted that there are some maintenance advantages to designing a project to encourage long term ownership.
Mayor Ellertson commented that the Council and Commission had discussed the first question at length and he assumes that the answer is yes. Councilmember Acerson asked Commissioner Anderson, as a next-door neighbor, what does he think? Commissioner Anderson replied that he wants 700 North to go through and he feels this is a more important question than if he wants homes around him. Mr. Smith agreed and added that developers have said that even one home helps, although it will not drive the development. The number of trips and easy access are what are more important. Mayor Ellertson commented that he believes 700 North will have the trips necessary to drive commercial development. Mr. Smith confirmed this opinion. He noted that the Walmart as an anchor on the State Street end will help too.
Mayor Ellertson suggested that the members talk about how to develop the area. He added that he could anticipate ultimate build out in possibly thirty years. Commissioner Anderson commented that there are about three hundred acres between the freeway and Geneva Road with a total of nine property owners. Mr. Smith observed that a project like what Mr. Corbridge had proposed occupied 45 acres at nine units per acre density, and if the City added some single family housing, residential housing would still not fill the whole area. Mayor Ellertson asked if Mr. Smith was suggesting some higher densities to buffer the commercial along 700 North. Mr. Dameron replied that staff was thinking about the "village" concept near 700 North. Mr. Smith agreed. He pointed out the area of heavy industrial zoning in Pleasant Grove north of one area near 700 North and suggested that housing would not be appropriate there. He also suggested that it would be more fair to spread the housing over all the property owners rather than concentrating it on only one land owner.
Commissioner Simister commented that services like elementary schools and churches should also be planned if the idea is to create a larger development. She noted that the average size of an elementary school is 700 children. Councilmember Bayless observed that the demographics for high density housing are mostly very young and there are not many elementary age children. The numbers needed for an LDS Stake were disclosed. She observed that 2,000 homes equal the size of Lindon now. Mr. Dameron noted that the suggestion incorporates 700 homes and 2,000 people, not 2,000 homes. Councilmember Bayless asked if this number would make a project economically feasible.
Commissioner Simister suggested that involving new residents with the city and in service organizations will help them integrate into Lindon rather than Pleasant Grove. Commissioner Sweeten observed that this proposal for 700 homes will create a new community that is part of Lindon. Mayor Ellertson asked if 700 homes would create the community. "Will it create schools?" he asked. Chairman Carpenter replied that it may take 15 years. Commissioner Simister added that schools may also include the adjoining area of Pleasant Grove for a time.
Commissioner Sweeten asked if single family homes with smaller lots are feasible. Mr. Smith replied that it depends on the price of land. He assured the Council and Commission that single family homes can be sold if they are priced right. Councilmember Acerson observed that selling single family homes on small lots in Lindon's price range may have to wait until neighboring cities are built out.
Mayor Ellertson expressed a concern that smaller lots do not create open space. Councilmember Bayless asked if he considered parks as open space or if he was thinking "real" open space. She asked if there were people who were interested in farming anymore. Commissioner Anderson replied that this area would not be take some time for the area to be filled in one day. He suggested also that if there are only a few units allowed, the housing on parcels to the west of him will drive his dairy out of business, but he will not be allowed to develop in turn. He suggested that open space be turned into parks or maintained by homeowners' associations. Councilmember Bayless asked if homeowners associations would maintain orchards and pastures. Mayor Ellertson expressed the opinion that the key to preserving open space will be allowing for multiple uses types of open space.
Chairman Carpenter suggested that one of the challenges to maintaining open space will be that some landowners are not going to wait and will sell the land to light industrial uses. If the City zones the property residential it will halt light industrial development, but, he asked, "Is that fair to the landowners." Mayor Ellertson commented that present day Lindon has a good mix of land uses. The Light Industrial use is growing and from a community tax base standpoint, there are some advantages to this. However, he commented, there seems to be a general feeling that a residential component is wanted and needed. He suggested a audible vote on question one. All the members present voted "yea" except Councilmember Hatch. He expressed his opinion that the residential component is being used to push high density housing with which he does not agree.
Mayor Ellertson observed that the market seems to indicate this as a feasible development option. Councilmember Hatch asked what is the market and who determines it? He asked if this information is from developers and large real estate firms trying to make the most money. Councilmember Bayless asked Councilmember Hatch what he considers as too dense. Councilmember Hatch replied more than six units per acre. Commissioner Simister and Chairman Carpenter agreed with this assessment. Mayor Ellertson asked if Councilmember Hatch was favorable to the concept of clustering or if he would require a minimum lot size. Councilmember Hatch expressed a preference for 6,000 to 7,000 square foot lots.
Mayor Ellertson observed that this size of lot would restrict the appearance of open space. He commented that high density housing with clustering gives the appearance of more open space. Councilmember Hatch replied that Lindon's smallest parks were larger than what Mr. Corbridge had proposed for open space. Chairman Carpenter commented that if Lindon is thinking of allowing clustering and high density housing, the details will need to very carefully determined and reviewed. Mayor Ellertson agreed. He asked the Council and Commission their vision of what the housing looks like, or if they are not sure, what is acceptable to them.
Councilmember Bayless asked what type of concept home buyers will be looking for and will the concepts of single-family-small lots or clustering-high-density meet the need? Mayor Ellertson replied that small single family houses are considered transitional housing for the young and the old. Councilmember Bayless commented that she was picturing what Councilmember Hatch suggested–a small lot single family subdivision for young couples with one to two children. She suggested that clustering high density housing may attract a different type of person, maybe a couple with no children or retirement people. Mayor Ellertson commented that this may depend on the development of the common area. Councilmember Bayless asked which group is the target market.
Commissioner Sweeten observed that anything that will turn into rentals is not what Lindon needs. He suggested that single family homes will be less likely to turn into rentals and are more salable. Mayor Ellertson observed that there is a perception that rentals are a problem. Councilmember Bayless noted that Lindon has a large amount of rental properties already. Mr. Smith added that Lindon has over 400 rental properties and he felt that the west side area should focus on ownership potential. Mayor Ellertson asked if 25% of the Lindon community was rentals. Mr. Smith replied that there are about 200 accessory apartments, which are included within a owner-occupied home and does not have a separate utility account. The 2,000 homes figure is based on active utility accounts.
Commissioner Sweeten asked Mayor Ellertson if there were rentals within his church calling area. Mayor Ellertson replied yes. Commissioner Sweeten observed that he has ten or twelve apartments within his area and that almost all welfare problems come from them. Chairman Carpenter commented that there tend to be people that are have problems in any neighborhood. Those that are struggling with financial problems usually remain renters, but there are a substantial number that are temporary renters. Commissioner Anderson added that the trailer court is an example of problem renters. Commissioner Simister observed that it is a well-known fact that most of a city's legal and emergency service problems tend to concentrate in rental areas.
Councilmember Bayless suggested a vote on housing options for the west side that are not prone to become rentals. Chairman Carpenter asked if the question was not limited to single family, but home ownership in general. Councilmember Bayless clarified that structures will not be built that are designed for renting, but would promote ownership. Mr. Smith observed that one way to combat this issue of degradation is to be careful how a project is designed. He commented that he could envision a project that people will not want to leave. He suggested that planning start with the streetscape and include pedestrian-friendly elements.
Mayor Ellertson commented that there is a time in our lives that managed landscaping is a advantage. Mr. Smith observed that if you were looking for a condo, would you want to live between a freeway and a collector with no amenities like on 1200 West in Orem? He suggested that Lindon create a community where people want to be. Let them walk to commercial areas to shop. Give them open space to meet their neighbors and enjoy the outside. He pointed out the attractive, older areas of Salt Lake City with tree-lined streets. He observed that people still want to live there and they are 70 years old. He added that he is a believer in design.
Councilmember Bayless suggested a vote limiting the area to six-units per acre. Mr. Smith suggesting bringing in developers that are impartial for opinions and suggestions. Councilmember Bayless suggested looking at projects which include clustering and non-clustering. Commissioner Simister suggested that question four was the most important. She felt that Lindon needs to know what they are looking for before they can determine the density.
Councilmember Hatch observed that Provo is mostly rentals and is now wanting to rebuild and revitalize neighborhoods with affordable ownership. Mayor Ellertson agreed that pride of ownership is important. Mr. Smith asked if the Council and Commission members would like to see the number of units limited to six per acre. Commissioner Atchison agreed and added that she would like to see a mix of single family and higher density in this range. Commissioner Simister agreed. She asked if clustering could be used with single family homes at 6 units per acre. Chairman Carpenter agreed and noted that this creates more open areas that benefit all the residents. Mayor Ellertson agreed that it could and added that the units should not promote rentals. He requested no "three stacks and twelve-plexes." The members reached a consensus on these items.
Councilmember Dain asked about blending housing into commercial and light industrial areas. Mayor Ellertson asked Mr. Smith to address this issue also. Mr. Dameron also suggested that neighborhood commercial could be worked into the blending area. Councilmember Hatch agreed. Commissioner Simister suggested that this area carry the Lindon theme of fences and trails. Mayor Ellertson agreed that the community needs to be drawn together and not encourage separate sections. Councilmember Dain suggested that something was needed to link residents from the east to the west. He suggested that the recreation center and pool could be part of the west side and the trail network be extended in this section.
Chairman Carpenter commented that he did not think this area was close enough to the light rail to encourage walkers, but a corridor for the UTA bus routes could be considered. Mayor Ellertson agreed. He noted that BYU and UVSC were working with the UTA on a college connector that has benefitted students and other commuters with more accessible parking and safer roads. There was a short discussion of how density encourages less vehicle use and walkable communities.
Chairman Carpenter asked about the sewer upgrades necessary to bring in this large of development. Mr. Smith replied that he had the City Engineer estimate the funding to do the necessary improvements. He informed the Council and Planning Commission members that the estimate is $408,000 to put in sewer improvements adequate for 1,600 homes. There was a short discussion of possible sources of funding and ways that future technology can reduce that amount.
Councilmember Bayless was recognized for bringing dinner. Mayor Ellertson commented that the group had made progress and had given staff some good information. The next work session was tentatively scheduled three weeks hence.
ADJOURN
THE WORK SESSION WAS ADJOURNED BY CONSENSUS AT 8:07 P.M.
APPROVED - March 18, 2003
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